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Post by Mojave Gator on Nov 27, 2023 14:27:13 GMT -5
Mark Stoops was the choice to succeed Jimbo Fisher, and the deal to bring him to College Station was apparently all but done. Then, someone leaked the news to fan boards, which blew up because they apparently believed that Stoops was beneath them. Then they wound up with a guy who had been at Duke for two years. Texas A&M stoops to new low by unhiring Mark Stoops amid fan revolt |
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Post by SoTxCaiman on Nov 27, 2023 14:47:29 GMT -5
...and they say we are spoiled.  |
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Post by Rock Gator on Nov 27, 2023 18:41:48 GMT -5
Gator Nation is pretty bad, but I think there are many, MANY fanbases that are just as bad. Re: Stoops, I think he could be good at TAMU but not sure he could win championships there. Then again, they paid all that money to win 2 out of 3 games. So maybe Stoops would be (or have been) an improvement.
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Post by tapsgator on Nov 28, 2023 9:49:26 GMT -5
Gator Nation is pretty bad, but I think there are many, MANY fanbases that are just as bad. Serious question, why do you think Gator Nation is bad when it comes to expectations? Absolutely not a shot at you, I just want to understand and this board is probably my best bet since people here are rational and I really don't get much out of asking someone who gives me word salad when at the end of the day the reason they think it is because Pat Dooley writes it or Chris Doering said in on SEC network. It's like asking a 25 year old why they vote a certain way and they'll use 1000 words when the answer is "because that's how my parents vote." Also, I don't think there's anything "bad" in a fanbase having expectations. Certainly not having the expectation that we not hit lows that haven't been seen in damn near 80 years, and if we have another losing season (I expect us to be underdogs in the majority of our games) it will be the first time with 4 straight losing seasons since I believe 1935. I grew up in Tallahassee and then went back for grad school during their run of 14 consecutive top 4 finishes (which will never be duplicated) and have lived in Atlanta for the past 22 years leading up to and in the midst of this UGA run that may very well never be duplicated. Outside of those respective windows their expectations of their program have been just as high if not higher and for (considerably) less reason in my opinion. I know it's worse in Tuscaloosa. It certainly seems to be the case at LSU, Texas, USC, Ohio State, Michigan, and on and on and on. I really think it goes back to the Spurrier quote from 25 years ago, a quote he's said multiple times he wishes he could have back. He was justifying his decision, I don't think he needed to and I know he didn't intend for it to take on a life of its own. Meyer probably didn't help but I'm not wasting time explaining that Urban is out for Urban which is fine, you get what you pay for. FSU didn't get back to national relevance by being patient with Taggert, and if Norvell had gotten worse instead of better from year 1 to year 2 and/or finished year 2 with 5 straight losses rather than by going from 0-4 to 5-7 and damn near beating UF in the Swamp to be bowl eligible Deion Sanders would be the coach in Tallahassee right now. That's an inconvenient truth for the "look at FSU with Norvell" crowd when it comes to Napier turning things around, so the company line just ignores it. Along with all the other differences between Napier and coaches who have actually pulled something similar to a turnaround after a rough year 1 (I can't find anybody who had a rough year 1 and trended the wrong way in year 2 and then turned it around). There's way more differences than there are similarities and the missing similarity is probably the only one that matters and that's the willingness AND ability to change. He has shown no inclination towards the former nor has there been any indication he has the capacity for the latter. If I'm spoiled that's fine, I don't consider it an insult, I want a coach who actually does what he says he's going to do and can both execute and alter his plan. Being able to formulate a complete sentence and use words that he actually understands in the proper context would be nice but is not a necessity. I want a guy who doesn't coachsplain why it's part of the process to lose at home to a 4-8 team for their sole victory in the SEC and being the 4th notch in a belt that also claims: FIU, Western Carolina, and Kent State. An AD that wasn't born and raised in Mississippi who hires bad coaches on the mens side and bad people for women's side. Basically people that don't embarrass my alma matter as a matter of course. I guess that's a big ask these days? If it is, I'll own in |
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Post by bimigator on Nov 28, 2023 15:07:12 GMT -5
I'll bite. The revolving door feels chaotic. I want to see the administration take its time, find the absolute right hire, and nail it. Frustrating that they didn't go for either Addazio or Strong in 2011 when Urban retired, as both those guys showed themselves to be capable coaches in future stops. I get that expectations are high here, but at some point the chaos is almost as embarrassing as the losses.
I was definitely excited about Napier two years ago because he seemed cut from the Urban cloth: relatively young, high energy, successful at a lower level. That he'd prove incapable of introspection was a surprise; mismanaging Anthony Richardson was an outright crime.
So I'd throw it back to everyone here: who's the right fit? And how will we know? My gut says you could get Scott Frost tomorrow and he'd be fantastic, but his recent resume argues otherwise.
I will say Foley did give us one rock solid piece of advice: "That which must be done eventually must be done immediately." It's definitely feeling inevitable that Billy will be canned; I for one have no hope for a year 3 turnaround. But please please please let's make the correct choice this time around (and not just grab the guy from Duke with two meh seasons under his belt).
Gonna cost $32mm to make Billy go away. Who writes these freaking deals?? For a Sunbelt guy who was just handed the keys to the Camaro — did we really NEED the massive buyout to lure him from Louisiana-Lafayette??
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Post by g8rfan on Nov 28, 2023 18:43:27 GMT -5
UF should never be anyone’s first P5 head coaching job. Go have some success at a place like Utah or turn around a team like NC State then you get your shot. IIwanted to believe but I had a bad feeling about hiring a guy straight from the Sun Belt. We need someone that has proven they can win games at the P5 level.
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Post by bimigator on Nov 28, 2023 20:27:49 GMT -5
Utah wasn't a power 5 job when Meyer was there. It was really Meyer's success that ultimately got them the Pac-12.
FSU is Norvell's first P5 job.
Jimbo won a championship at FSU in his first ever head coaching stop. Ditto Dabo at Clemson, Stoops at Oklahoma, and Kirby at Georgia.
Napier having coached in the Sunbelt isn't the problem — his ineptitude is what's wrong here.
I'm also not sure there's a single P5 coach out there who I'd want as Florida's next coach — they're either in a rut where they are and looking for a change (Dan Mullen at Mississippi State), or they're doing it solely for the money and are thus a mercenary (Urban Meyer). I'm not sure there's a Nick Saban who genuinely wants to find a spot to stay forever if he can.
Exceptions — i.e. active head coaches who have proven themselves but may be open to change based on hitting a ceiling at their current school because of its limitations — are Lane Kiffin, and that's about it. Maybe Kyle Whittingham, but he's getting old and has never been in the South. Eli Drinkowitz knows a thing or two about winning in the Swamp. I'm not a believer in Josh Heupel just yet, and Mark Stoops may have hit a personal ceiling.
Otherwise, we're taking a chance on an unproven commodity. I'd love to see us take a run at Brian Johnson, but who knows if he'd be a good head ball coach. I'd be open to pulling Charlie Strong back in, especially if we had a younger head coach in waiting (like Johnson) as a package deal. (Kind of talking myself into that idea now that I think of it. We'd be untouchable recruiting Florida kids.) Maybe a hot coordinator like Sherrone Moore? Everyone in Texas A&M's shortlist was a West Coaster...not sure any of them are ready for a Florida gig.
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Post by Mojave Gator on Nov 28, 2023 21:43:34 GMT -5
I can't think of anyone out west who I would want to consider. Barry Odom has worked a near miracle with UNLV, but that is just one season, and he was less than spectacular as head coach at Missouri.
Curt Cignetti at James Madison has led a pretty much seamless transition from FCS to FBS. The Dukes were unbeaten this season before losing a game in overtime to Appalachian State the week that the NCAA denied their petition for bowl eligibility (and I suspect that there was a connection). He has led the JMU program since 2018, and he was a member of Nick Saban's first staff at Alabama in 2007. One of his responsibilities was recruiting coordinator. Recruiting to Alabama back then wasn't the automatic that it is now, because the Tide was coming off a rough patch.
I also wonder what Mark Stoops could do with Florida's resources and proximity to a prime recruiting area. What he has achieved at Kentucky is unprecedented in the modern era. He has peaked at UK, because he can't reel in enough four- and five-star recruits to beat the top teams in the SEC (or even be competitive with them) given the perception that he coaches football at a basketball school. Texas A&M was on the verge of bringing him in for a hire that they knew that they had to get right after the Jimbo Fisher fiasco. Unfortunately for Stoops, they allowed their fan base to screen candidates for the head coach's job.
Another potential candidate, who is in a similar situation to Mark Stoops, is Mike Gundy at Oklahoma State. OSU isn't a hardcore basketball school, but they are a distant second to Oklahoma for recruits in their state. Gundy reportedly pursued the UF job when Mullen was hired. Gundy is an Oklahoma State alumnus (former quarterback there), but he has become increasingly tired of butting his head against the glass ceiling that exists for his program. He has his team in the Big 12 title game, and during a prior trip his team was within half a yard of victory when they were stopped on fourth and goal. He beat Notre Dame in the Fiesta Bowl, coming from two touchdowns behind to do so. He seems to get the most out of what he has.
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Post by g8rfan on Nov 29, 2023 8:06:19 GMT -5
Utah wasn't a power 5 job when Meyer was there. It was really Meyer's success that ultimately got them the Pac-12. FSU is Norvell's first P5 job. Jimbo won a championship at FSU in his first ever head coaching stop. Ditto Dabo at Clemson, Stoops at Oklahoma, and Kirby at Georgia. Napier having coached in the Sunbelt isn't the problem — his ineptitude is what's wrong here. I'm also not sure there's a single P5 coach out there who I'd want as Florida's next coach — they're either in a rut where they are and looking for a change (Dan Mullen at Mississippi State), or they're doing it solely for the money and are thus a mercenary (Urban Meyer). I'm not sure there's a Nick Saban who genuinely wants to find a spot to stay forever if he can. Exceptions — i.e. active head coaches who have proven themselves but may be open to change based on hitting a ceiling at their current school because of its limitations — are Lane Kiffin, and that's about it. Maybe Kyle Whittingham, but he's getting old and has never been in the South. Eli Drinkowitz knows a thing or two about winning in the Swamp. I'm not a believer in Josh Heupel just yet, and Mark Stoops may have hit a personal ceiling. Otherwise, we're taking a chance on an unproven commodity. I'd love to see us take a run at Brian Johnson, but who knows if he'd be a good head ball coach. I'd be open to pulling Charlie Strong back in, especially if we had a younger head coach in waiting (like Johnson) as a package deal. (Kind of talking myself into that idea now that I think of it. We'd be untouchable recruiting Florida kids.) Maybe a hot coordinator like Sherrone Moore? Everyone in Texas A&M's shortlist was a West Coaster...not sure any of them are ready for a Florida gig. All good points and I stand correctd> Utah was a bad example in this instance. |
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Post by SoTxCaiman on Nov 29, 2023 10:46:58 GMT -5
My Short List
Jedd Fisch
Lane Kiffin
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Post by tapsgator on Nov 29, 2023 12:43:40 GMT -5
No argument from me Bimi, it absolutely sucks having to hire new coaches, but I really can't think of one program of any note where a coach is presumed to get a 3rd year after a program reaches a low that hasn't been seen in 76 years. I can't think of any successful organization where it's really not a consideration. Particularly as the reasons he was hired (structure, discipline, attention to detail) become obvious fallacies and even the reasons people say he should stay (super duper awesome recruiting class after two mediocre at best classes, he's going to clean house and restructure the staff) are disintegrating. It's insane. I would get it if he had improved from year 1 to year 2, if he had actually shown any inclination or capacity to change course even slightly or any semblance of self-awareness. I just haven't seen it. For me, the whole "spoiled" narrative doesn't make sense, especially in Napier's case due to said historical ineptitude, and really not with his 2 predecessors who each sped their exits with such stupidity that I think it had to be at least somewhat intentional. Muschamp got too long just by not doing anything really stupid. There are certainly expectations, but I can't think of a similar job where the expectations aren't at least the same, and in most cases they're higher. Buyout is absurd, Bull Gators could absorb it in a heart beat. Hell the internal budget could take the hit a still turn a healthy profit, but that doesn't make it any less stupid. Again I think the real problem is the person making the hire and negotiating the contract. He's a drowning man and he's taking the football program with him, and if given enough time he'll drag down the rest of the sports in order from most complex/revenue producing (basketball is next) on down. The repeated scandals in female sports were when he absolutely should have gone, frankly I'm surprised you haven't had some women's rights organizations rattle their sabers a bit more, but I guess that's a perk of football being so down that we don't really move the needle anymore. If one scandal like that had broken during the Spurrier or Meyer years people would have been all over it. Accepting the reality that is "everybody gets a third year!" we'll see how far he makes it. If we open up 1-3 I wouldn't be surprised to see a mid-season termination. 2-2 and the seat will be pretty hot. I don't think Power 5 HC experience is a necessity although given the expansion of Power 5 teams it's pretty close. At the very least you need to have been either a coordinator or a key assistant/HC in waiting who has shown the ability to succeed against top level competition. Utah was undefeated and finished #4 in the country. Memphis played in the Cotton Bowl. You can't really compare that to Louisiana winning the Sunbelt 1x in Napier's 3 years, although I was right there with you in wanting it to be apples to apples at the time of the hire. Those guys also had a ton more hands on substantive experience with real programs as assistants as well which I think is something that is sorely missing for Napier. Here's a list of guys that either a new AD or at least a search committee should look into: Current/Former Head coaches: DeBoer, Fickle, Fisch, Leopold, Fritz, Traylor, Frost, Sanders, Kingsbury, Stoopes (both of them can't hurt to ask), Cignetti, Meyer (can't hurt to ask), Traylolr, Cantrell, Candle, Sumrall, Gundy Assistants: Garrett Riley, Glenn Schuman, Brian Hartline, there's actually a bunch: www.on3.com/news/20-college-football-assistant-coaches-that-administrators-are-high-on-as-head-coaching-candidates/but these guys would be better off coming in as coordinator/HC in waiting if you hired an older/established coach. Like this: I'd love to see us take a run at Brian Johnson, but who knows if he'd be a good head ball coach. I'd be open to pulling Charlie Strong back in, especially if we had a younger head coach in waiting (like Johnson) as a package deal. (Kind of talking myself into that idea now that I think of it. We'd be untouchable recruiting Florida kids.) Everyone in Texas A&M's shortlist was a West Coaster...not sure any of them are ready for a Florida gig. Just read this closer and love this idea so much. Urban Meyer with Strong and Johnson as coordinators and Johnson as Head Coach in waiting? Moore lost me with the crying post game interview about Harbaugh. Shame because he reminds me of Uncle Phil from The Fresh Prince and who wouldn't want an Uncle Phil on the sidelines? |
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Post by bimigator on Nov 29, 2023 13:18:53 GMT -5
How has your assessment of Sanders been affected by their latter half slide? Granting he's a monster recruiter, can he truly build a program?
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Post by tapsgator on Nov 29, 2023 14:03:48 GMT -5
How has your assessment of Sanders been affected by their latter half slide? Granting he's a monster recruiter, can he truly build a program? It hasn't changed much but it has regressed to where it was prior to his success out of the gate. I thought he was either doing this for attention (didn't realize that there was a paternal consideration of any real substance) and would be on to analyst/color commentator/celebrity/commercial actor after 2 years or he would actually go after it and have a good shot of excelling IF he could set aside his ego and delegate. The initial success at Colorado got everyone over their skis, me included, and I thought maybe he was such a force of nature that he wouldn't even have to adjust and blow right past the growing pains that most coaches, especially former players who tend to get jobs above their weight class, have to endure. I knew they weren't going to challenge for the Pac 12 title and Shadeur wasn't headed for being 1/1 but I thought they'd get to 8-4 by winning games they should (which I thought there would be more of because the last year of the Pac 12 has had a surprising amount of talent top to bottom although I think they're way overrated) and maybe pulling an upset or two. Figured Oregon, USC, and Washington they'd get boat raced and a UCLA or Arizona would get them in a closer game. The timing of stuff was where it got tricky, end of the day he took a 1 win team, and went over their Vegas number. He also put a scare in a couple of ranked teams. If those were spread evenly across the season I don't think you have the wild pendulum swings that we saw in national perception. End of the day, I want to see what Deion could do at a better school in the South. In a perfect world we would wait and see how he responds to this adversity, but gun to my head I'd take him over Napier every day of the week. He's a swing for the fences, but if you strike out it's gonna be on 3 pitches and you'll get plenty of national attention and a corresponding recruiting bump for the next coach, and nobody is going to complain if you make a move after year 2. It would have been worth a shot and there'd be silver linings because you've shown some balls and I guarantee a motivated Deion would assemble a lot of talent on the roster. The new transfer rules with their intended purpose of Deion-proofing a complete roster turnover make it more likely that those kids stay after he leaves as well. I want to see if he gets rid of Charles Kelly. Will he bring in guys who can coach and recruit the lines of scrimmage? Will he recruit traditionally rather than trying to overhaul the roster through the portal on a yearly basis? My problem with our approach from the top down since Meyer left and call it spoiled if you want is that we keep striking out looking. Or we foul off a bunt with 2 strikes. Basically it's water drip torture/death by a thousand paper cuts. Some of the HC hires are weird, some of them are predictable, but all of them were safe at the time. Napier was probably the best of the bunch in terms of what you reasonably thought you were bringing in to be honest. I think that's why it was almost universally given an B+/A-/A grade as a hire. He was pretty damn bad last year and got D+ from everywhere I saw. I don't know how that doesn't go down after year 2. He makes what he perceives to be safe hires, safe play calls, safe roster construction/playing time decisions. Safe, safe, safe. As a football program we are scared money to borrow a phrase, and we certainly aren't making (figurative) money. |
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Post by bimigator on Nov 29, 2023 14:35:35 GMT -5
I think that's a fair assessment of Sanders. I don't love the showboating and never understood why the media annointed him as the Second Coming after one win, but he definitely knows how to pump up his kids and get high level recruits to his program.
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Post by tapsgator on Nov 29, 2023 15:27:47 GMT -5
I think that's a fair assessment of Sanders. I don't love the showboating and never understood why the media annointed him as the Second Coming after one win, but he definitely knows how to pump up his kids and get high level recruits to his program. For sure, he's had some (predictable) missteps and his ego is very real and massive. He also suffers from what all all-time greats do when they coach where he just can't understand why people don't put in the work to get to the next level or just can't do 30% of the things he could do. I get the impression that his kids also have next level work ethic (Deion Sanders work ethic was insane as a player and I assume as a coach, the Prime Time/Coach Prime is almost a character he chooses to play for whatever reason in public), so when a blue chipper like McClain comes in and doesn't do the work Deion is pissed and wants to send a message in the spirit of tough love but when Coach Prime delivers it publicly it doesn't play very well. Those and some of the assistant/staff hires may be growing pains or the may be coaching career killers depending on if he can set his ego aside. Honestly it probably comes down to who actually has the wheel Deion Sanders who will learn from and fix mistakes or Coach Prime who will double down. I honestly think it's damn near a coin flip. |
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Post by Rock Gator on Nov 30, 2023 7:18:03 GMT -5
"The initial success at Colorado got everyone over their skis, me included..." Include me as well, but part of that was the win against the paper tiger TCU to start the year. THEY BEAT TCU - A PLAYOFF TEAM LAST YEAR!!!! Buffs are going to the Ship! We all know that TCU was out of their league in the playoffs, although IDK how they beat Michigan. But Georgia played big boy football and they couldn't come close to matching it. BUT THEY WERE A PLAYOFF TEAM! THEY WERE IN THE NC GAME!
Fast forward to Game 1 this year, and CU beating them took that hype machine and poured hydrazine into it. They won some early games to keep it going, until reality set in. Also, TCU turned out to be a total fraud this year, finishing 5-7 just like the Gators.
Your assessment of Deion is spot on taps, he doesn't understand why all his kids don't have the passion and drive that he had and still has. He's going to have to figure out how to temper his expectations, to get the most out of his team, wherever that may be.
RG
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Post by Mojave Gator on Dec 1, 2023 15:11:15 GMT -5
Your assessment of Deion is spot on taps, he doesn't understand why all his kids don't have the passion and drive that he had and still has. He's going to have to figure out how to temper his expectations, to get the most out of his team, wherever that may be. This is precisely why most superstars don't make great coaches, regardless of the sport. Things that came naturally or easily to them don't to many of their players, but they can't identify with it and don't know how to teach it. |
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Post by g8rfan on Dec 1, 2023 16:51:24 GMT -5
Those who can’t do, teach.
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Post by Rock Gator on Dec 1, 2023 18:39:29 GMT -5
Those who can’t do, teach. In this case, those *can* do (Prime), can't teach. Maybe? IDK but if true, he's got a long hard coaching career ahead of him. |
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Post by g8rfan on Dec 1, 2023 18:42:49 GMT -5
Prime might end up being a great coach just by virtue of kids wanting to play for him. Like him or not the dude has star power and kids gravitate towards that. I can guarantee he’s doing everything he can to beat his opponent so if he gets the right group of kids look out.
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